Depart Out • Harold Camping • End of the world • church age • Family Radio • View topic

Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 1604

Camping once published a booklet with this title (which for some reason is no longer on the FR website....maybe it's undergoing revision to remove all the eternal punishment pronouncements). Anyway, in that booklet Camping gives us his definition of the gospel. I believe it's a faulty definition and one that laid the foundation for his current false esoteric gospel of hidden dates and depart out commandments. According to Camping, the gospel is defined as "the entire Bible" from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:18. Conversely, he would say that "The entire Bible is the gospel". Now note that this is different than saying the entire Bible is about the gospel (which is true) or that the entire Bible is related to the gospel (which is also true). What Camping has done is to equate the gospel with the Bible. I would argue such a definition of the gospel is a fallacious and downright dangerous.

Camping's unusual definition of the gospel goes back to a controversy he experienced within his own local church (of the Christian Reformed denomination) back in the early 1970s. He explained this all in an interview I heard him give back in the early 90s. The controversy had to do with a rift in his church over the charismatic movement. I'm not sure of the details, but it seems as though there was a group in his church that became open to the practice of the "sign gifts" associated with the charismatic movement. According to Camping, his feelings about the charismatic movement were neutral prior to the early 1970s. But once the movement infiltrated his church, he began to study the issue more closely and came to the conclusion that the charismatic movement was of s origin. As I understand it, the rift led to a church split where those who were sympathetic to the charismatic doctrines either left or were pushed out of the church, with Camping himself being the lead warrior on the anti-charismatic side of the battle. Anyway, as Camping explained it, the verses that made the light go off for him on the issue were Rev 22:18. According to him, at that point he realized that this verse was teaching that the "entire Bible was the gospel", so that if anyone believed there were "Divine Words" (like tongues) from other sources than the Bible, then they were following "another gospel".

Now let me make it clear that I am no apologist for the charismatic movement. However, just because I'm against a movement, that does not give me the right to redefine the gospel in order to give myself an extra cudgel to use against it. I'm afraid that's what Camping has done in his battle against the charismatics. The problem as I see it is that Rev 22:18 is not a definition of the gospel. It's a command not to add or take away from the Word. It's a command like any other command...Do not steal, Do not murder, etc. One can reasonably argue that those who persistently disobey the command of Rev 22:18 show evidence of being unsaved. One may believe charismatics fall into that category. That's a legitimate interpretation (but ultimately a different discussion). However, what we can't do is force a meaning onto Rev 22:18 that is not there. Rev 22:18 does not give us a definition of the gospel. The word "gospel" does not even appear in that verse.

This "The whole Bible is the gospel" premise has been a pillar of Camping's teaching for almost 40 years. I accepted it myself for many years. It wasn't until I started listening to the Bible itself rather than what Harold Camping told me about the Bible, that I came to understand the utter fallacy of this idea. The entire Bible is not the gospel. The entire Bible is indeed God's Word, but that doesn't make the entire Bible the gospel. The word gospel comes from the expression "good tidings" or "good news". It doesn't take too much study of the Bible to realize that God's Word is not all good news. There's lots of bad news. The bad news that human beings are sinners under God's Judgment. The bad news that the Law was given to expose our wickedness and inability to love or obey God. The bad news that most of the human race will face eternal damnation. All of this bad news is not the gospel. It sets the stage for and exposes our need of the gospel, but it is not the gospel. We actually don't have to speculate what the gospel is. The Bible tells us quite clearly:

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

The gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ and his death and Resurrection for lost sinners. It is a message that is contained within the Bible. But the Bible itself is not the gospel. In fact, equating the Bible with the gospel is very dangerous because it opens the door to what Harold Camping has now done, which is to take biblical laws (like the supposed command to flee the churches) and any biblical information he wishes (like dates) and then tell us that these things are now "part of the gospel" simply because such things are contained within the Bible. That is exactly the same fatal error which Paul wrote the entire book of Galatians to refute! Some in the Galatian church were trying to take biblical laws like circumcision and make those laws part of the gospel. Paul pronounced a curse on anyone who would do such a thing! This idea that the whole Bible is the gospel is a very dangerous idea because it erases all distinction between Law and gospel. I'm afraid that Camping's current false Calendar gospel is one of the bitter fruits of his confused understanding of the relationship between the Bible and the gospel.

You see, once someone arrives at the erroneous conclusion that the gospel is the Bible, they can feel justified in taking any truths they want from the Bible (real or imagined) and make them part of the gospel message itself. That's how Camping has replaced the true gospel with his own esoteric gospel of hidden dates and depart out commands. He feels that the mere presence of these end times truths (or I would say imagined end times truths) in the Bible gives him justification for making these truths as part of the gospel message itself.

Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 664

@Frank,

Of course, your article is an opinion piece. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter what the consequences are. But, let me lay some Biblical Truth upon your words.

You say, "laid the foundation for his current false esoteric gospel of hidden dates and depart out commandments."

The dates have always been in the Bible. The time between events is fixed. As it was the Lord's intent to keep end time information hidden from man, until the time of the end, the Lord used the time between events to illustrate Biblical Truths. It was only by the Lord's mercy, that some now have an understanding of the Biblical time line of history. Not ALL men are GIVEN such information. The Lord controls who knows what, and when they know it (Lk 24:45). Because you don't understand something, does NOT mean it does not exist.

In addition, the command to flee the local congregations is that of the Lord. Mr. Camping is only a Messenger. To claim otherwise, means the Lord has not given you understanding. Not that the command to flee does not exist!! Thousands of True Believers understand the command to flee.

You say, "The Bible tells us quite clearly."

I cringe when I see people write this. The Bible was written in parables, to keep people from understanding. Biblical Truth is a GIFT of God. We can't read a single verse, close the Bible, and think we have Truth!! On the contrary, seminary professors don't even understand Salvation. Someone could spend years in the Bible, and never have Biblical Truth. Yes, they may know historical facts, but the Bible is a spiritual Book, and Biblical Truth is submerged like an iceburg. Only by the Lord's imtervention, will we ever come to Truth. MOST will NEVER have it!

John 3:16, says whosoever will believe shall have everlasting life. Is that single verse enough to define Salvation? NO WAY!! Yet folks make this error all day long.

You say, "That is exactly the same fatal error which Paul wrote the entire book of Galatians to refute!"

The Bible was Authored by the Lord Jesus Christ. Not a single Word in Galatians came from Paul's mind! The human scribes were not the Author's of GOD'S LAW BOOK!. It's called the HOLY Bible for a reason!!

You say, "He feels that the mere presence of these end times truths (or I would say imagined end times truths) in the Bible gives him justification for making these truths as part of the gospel message itself."

You fail to realize the role of the Born again Elect, as End Time Watchman (Ezek 33:1-10). The message has changed from that of the Church Age (0033-1988). The mission of the churches is OVER, for 22 years now. The Lord is in the process, and is about done, with dividing the entire human race (Wheat and Tares). The remnant that will be Raptured, and the masses that will be entering the lake of fire May 21, 2011-Oct 21, 2011.

The business as usual attitude of the church world is pathetic, at best. The vast majority of the church population is about to be annihilated, and the pastors don't make a sound. Oblivious to the hail storm of the Lord's wrath that is about to swollow them up! How can that be! They have the Bible! They should know these things! Fact is, the churches are following an entirely different gospel!! A man centered gospel that bears only a shadow of Truth, but is NOT the Truth. The church weeds are being bound for the fire in 48 weeks, from which there will be NO recovery!!

"If any man have an ear, let him hear." Rev 13:9

Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 1604

WitnessoftheTruth wrote

Of course, your article is an opinion piece. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter what the consequences are. But, let me lay some Biblical Truth upon your words.

While I certainly interjected my opinions (as everyone on this forum does whenever they post), I answered the question posed "What is the gospel" with the definition given by Scripture in 1 Cor 15. Camping is the one whose definition of the gospel is ALL opinion since he bases it on Rev 22:18 which does not even contain the word "gospel".

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The dates have always been in the Bible.

Even if all of Camping's dates are correct, it is still heresy to make believing those dates part of the gospel message. He did not do that back in 1994. This time around (2011) he has utterly perverted the gospel by making acceptance of his end times teachings a requirement for salvation.

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I cringe when I see people write this. The Bible was written in parables, to keep people from understanding. Biblical Truth is a GIFT of God.

It's true that under the Old Covenant prior to Pentecost, the gospel was hidden in types and parables. But with the New Covenant, what was hidden and obscure has now been made plain:

Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? (Gal 3:1)

His disciples said to Him, “See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! (John 16:29)

Then the LORD answered me and said: “ Write the vision And make it plain on tablets, That he may run who reads it. (Hab 2:2)

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Tim 1:8-10)

But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. (2 Cor 3:14)

Campingism errs by failing to understand one of the major differences between the Old and New Testaments. They believe that everything in the Bible is a parable. Of course, although they say that, they don't practice that. I could provide dozens of examples where Camping takes Bible verses at their literal face value and does not look for any hidden meanings. I'll just give one example....the command for women not to teach or have authority over men. Why aren't Camping friends looking for hidden alternate meanings for that passage? No, Camping is perfectly happy to stick with the plain old meaning because it helps him build his dead church narrative as he looks around and sees churches ordaining women leaders. Camping's "the whole Bible is a parable" teaching is a convenient ruse he can keep in his pocket and pull out any time he's forced to face Scripture that contradicts his teachings. If a verse supports his doctrines, he's perfectly happy to stick with the clear and plain meaning. If it contradicts his teachings, he pulls out his "it's all a parable" card and tells us that the true meaning his hidden and those who can't see it haven't had their eyes opened to truth. As I've said before, that is why it is almost impossible to deconvert a die-hard Camping supporter. They are held in bondage to Camping because the only thing that can possibly free them from Camping's errors (Scripture), has been neutralized because they have been programmed to believe that all Scripture which contradicts Campingism is really a trap or testing program set up by God to test their loyalty to Camping. Only Camping knows what Scripture verses should be interpreted "plainly" and which verses are traps set up by God to test people's loyalty to Camping's Depart Out/2011 gospel. So these poor Camping followers are emotionally and psychologically trapped. In some ways that is why there is a silver lining to the fact that Camping has declared May 21 to be 100% sure. It's going to take something as dramatic as the failure of May 21, 2011 to wake up at least some of these poor souls to the reality that they have been snared into a false gospel. The failure of 1994 was a wake up call to many (like myself) which God used to free many from the false teachings of Harold Camping. God willing the same thing will happen after the failure of May 21.

Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 664

Using Mr. Camping as a straw man misses the mark. The Plum Line is God's Holy Word. I don't plan on debating what Mr. Camping says.

My original comment stands. The Gospel is not defined by a single verse. The entire Church Age (0033-1988) was characterized by darkness. There are 38,000 chuch denominations pointing to one Bible!!! You call that clarity!!

Please! Your thoughts on Mr. Camping? Sent them to Mr. Camping! He does not speak for me. I don't speak for him. Interjecting Mr. Camping into every reply is a sign of mental illness!

Joined: 10 Jun 2010 Posts: 184

I'm glad I'm not the only one you have ascribed the "mentally ill" label to.

Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 1604

WitnessoftheTruth wrote

Using Mr. Camping as a straw man misses the mark. The Plum Line is God's Holy Word. I don't plan on debating what Mr. Camping says.

My original comment stands. The Gospel is not defined by a single verse. The entire Church Age (0033-1988) was characterized by darkness. There are 38,000 chuch denominations pointing to one Bible!!! You call that clarity!!

Please! Your thoughts on Mr. Camping? Sent them to Mr. Camping! He does not speak for me. I don't speak for him. Interjecting Mr. Camping into every reply is a sign of mental illness!

Witness,
In case you didn't notice, the title of this forum is "A discussion of the teachings of Harold Camping". If you are not interested in "debating what Mr. Camping says" then I don't know what you are doing here on this forum.

I'll once again challenge you to share with us some significant point where you disagree with Harold Camping. If he doesn't speak for you then certainly there must be things you differ with him about, otherwise you wouldn't be so concerned about disassociating yourself from him. So again, please share with us what you believe that is so different than Harold Camping.

Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 664

@Frank, Jimb invited me to join this forum. He wrote to me PM on facebook several times. Here is one such PM:

"Bill, your presence is desired on departout.com."

I didn't realize he was a scoffer at the time. So I started posting, and he started to post against Biblical truth. He apparently only invited me so he would have someone to attack on this page.

I have NO interest in going back and forth about Mr. Camping. My desire is to proclaim Biblical Truth in the market place, as we approach the end of life as we know it, on May 21, 2011. I also have a channel on YouTube to proclaim Biblical Truth.

It's pointless to defend any man. Man has no control. It's the Lord that will come as a thief in the night. John 10:10, tells us a thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. This is what the Lord will do in 11 months. It is the Lord we need to fear. He will be the Destroyer in 48 weeks, not Mr. Camping!!

Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 664

@Frank,

I have several points where I depart from Mr. Camping.

1) I am claiming the very HOUR of the Lord's return. Mr. Camping never speaks beyond the day. But the Bible tells us time is in four parts:

Rev 9:15 "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an HOUR, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

Btw, the third part of men refers to the church folks.

2) I disagree with his 1/70 illustration of Salvation.

3) I disagree with his statements we can increase our chances of becoming saved, by pleading for mercy. Salvation was LOCKED UP, before the world began. Pleading for mercy can only apply to the punishment phase. Perhaps the Lord would kill the person quickly in the day of Judgment, to avoid months of guaranteed suffering. No 'new' person can be added to the Salvation roll call.

4) There are many proofs for May 21, 2011, that Mr. Camping has not even mentioned. For example, Mr. Camping doesn't mention the significance of the Exodus in relation to 2011.

5) Misc. other points.

Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 1604

WitnessoftheTruth wrote

@Frank, Jimb invited me to join this forum. He wrote to me PM on facebook several times. Here is one such PM:

"Bill, your presence is desired on departout.com."

I didn't realize he was a scoffer at the time. So I started posting, and he started to post against Biblical truth. He apparently only invited me so he would have someone to attack on this page.

I have NO interest in going back and forth about Mr. Camping. My desire is to proclaim Biblical Truth in the market place, as we approach the end of life as we know it, on May 21, 2011. I also have a channel on YouTube to proclaim Biblical Truth.

It's pointless to defend any man. Man has no control. It's the Lord that will come as a thief in the night. John 10:10, tells us a thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. This is what the Lord will do in 11 months. It is the Lord we need to fear. He will be the Destroyer in 48 weeks, not Mr. Camping!!

Witness,
Well I think you've admitted what should probably have been very obvious to me by now, namely that you are not here to have a real discussion but to herald your new gospel. Given that, we're probably wasting each other's time going back and forth on this or any other related topic.

Joined: 28 Jun 2008 Posts: 1335

WitnessoftheTruth wrote

Mr. Camping! He does not speak for me.

yes yes you are right! ..... but do you speak for him? Very Happy

Joined: 28 Jun 2008 Posts: 1335

WitnessoftheTruth wrote

@Frank,

I have several points where I depart from Mr. Camping.

1) I am claiming the very HOUR of the Lord's return. Mr. Camping never speaks beyond the day. But the Bible tells us time is in four parts:

Rev 9:15 "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an HOUR, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

Btw, the third part of men refers to the church folks.

2) I disagree with his 1/70 illustration of Salvation.

3) I disagree with his statements we can increase our chances of becoming saved, by pleading for mercy. Salvation was LOCKED UP, before the world began. Pleading for mercy can only apply to the punishment phase. Perhaps the Lord would kill the person quickly in the day of Judgment, to avoid months of guaranteed suffering. No 'new' person can be added to the Salvation roll call.

4) There are many proofs for May 21, 2011, that Mr. Camping has not even mentioned. For example, Mr. Camping doesn't mention the significance of the Exodus in relation to 2011.

5) Misc. other points.

Convincing! I'm sold!
Can someone please turn on the lights around here? Idea

Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 3027

WitnessoftheTruth wrote

@Frank, Jimb invited me to join this forum. He wrote to me PM on facebook several times. Here is one such PM:

"Bill, your presence is desired on departout.com."

I didn't realize he was a scoffer at the time. So I started posting, and he started to post against Biblical truth. He apparently only invited me so he would have someone to attack on this page.

Witness,

JBrown invited you to join this forum, not me.

While Jim B can also be JBrown, because we have the same initials, we are 2 different people.

Jim B.
jimbbbbb@gmail.com

Joined: 10 Feb 2008 Posts: 2059

I was wrong in the last post. I'm actually Jimb ( don't deny it Jimb) jbrown

Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 664

@Frank,

You say, "you are not here to have a real discussion but to herald your new gospel."

Sorry, I don't have any Gospel of my own. I'm not that ambitious! I only proclaim what the Lord has GIVEN me. I didn't write the Holy Bible. I wouldn't be smart enough to tie it all together so neatly.

Those who understand the Bible, because the Lord GAVE them understanding (Lk 24:45). Knows the Bible is a spiritual Book of progressive revelation. We know from verses like Dan 12:4; I Cor 13: 9-12; Heb 8, that our understanding of the Bible is fluid, and controlled by the Lord. Most people DON"T have spiritual discernment.

Isa 44:18 "They have not known nor understood: for He hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand."

The Lord can also harden our hearts to bring Him Glory:

Jer 44:16 "As for the Word that thou hast spoken unto us in the Name of the LORD, WE WILL NOT HARKEN UNTO THEE."

Exd 14:17 "And I, behold, I WILL HARDEN THE HEARTS OF THE EGYPTIANS, and they shall follow them: and I will get Me HONOUR upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen."

So NO!! I am not interested in discussing Church Age (0033-1988), that in our day, just 47 weeks from the Rapture, is WORTHLESS. Actually, it's less than WORTHLESS, it's DETRIMENTAL. Folks who have been given ears to hear, need to hear BIBLICAL TRUTH!

Mankind is about to be exterminated from planet earth. This is no time for church lies!!

Joined: 27 Dec 2007 Posts: 3027

jbrown wrote

I was wrong in the last post. I'm actually Jimb ( don't deny it Jimb) jbrown

Pretty funny jbrown.