Depart Out • Harold Camping • End of the world • church age • Family Radio • View topic - Edwin Thiele Confesses The Bible Gives No Absolute Dates

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 2835

In Camping's s-atanic book "Adam When?" he says this in the 1974 version, on page 69:

"We are particularly indebted to the eminent scholar Edwin R. Thiele, who in the book THE MYSTERIOUS NUMBERS OF THE HEBREWS KINGS established THE DATE of the death of Solomon and the division of the kingdom as 931BC"

Now, keep in mind that Camping-ites will be deceptive and say "the secular record/calendar matches the Biblical record/calendar, and these 2 calendars are in harmony"

Now, the reality is, the secular record establishes the Biblical record.

Without the secular record, you cannot establish any Biblical dates

Now, Edwin Thiele who established the 931BC date of Solomon's death(which Camping uses), also said this:

"In the Old Testament NO ABSOLUTE DATES ARE GIVEN, and it becomes our task to establish, if we can, some absolute date in the history of Israel that can be used as a starting place to establish the other dates in the desired chronological scheme" Edwin Thiele, The Mysterious Numbers Of The Hebrew Kings, page 67

So, he admits that the Bible does not establish absolute dates....secular evidence must be examined.

And states:

"Assyrian chronology back to the beginning of the 9th century BC rests on a highly dependable basis...." Edwin Thiele, The Mysterious Numbers Of The Hebrew Kings, page 67

So, the Assyrian calendar is the foundation for establishing any of the Biblical dates;

Thiele says:

"And what are we to say if, here and there, an indication of SOME MISUNDERSTANDING may come to light? This work was DONE BY PEOPLE, NOT GOD......has any person ever lived who could make no mistake?" Edwin Thiele, The Mysterious Numbers Of The Hebrew Kings, page 208-209

So, Thiele admits, despite how many "fixes" he came up with, that his work is not absolute, subject to error, as the people examining this "secular" evidence are fallible men, not God.

And that is why so many different dates of Solomon's death are established....because it is based on secular evidence and that "fallible" person's interpretation of it.

Some say 935BC, others say 945BC, some say 924BC

Many dates are given.

The reality is, while the Camping-ites say "their secular calendar is perfect" the one who created the foundation of it, Edwin Thiele, admitted it is subject to error and that the Bible alone does not establish any Old Testament absolute dates.

Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 146 Location: Texas

Hi, Lambsfury. I heard that Mr. Camping had a stroke and came back here briefly. Will leave again, after this post, for the summer (unless I have time to come back earlier).

You're quite wrong to say there are no absolute dates. THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY SOURCE WHERE YOU CAN GET ABSOLUTE DATES FOR ALL THE EVENTS MENTIONED, GOING BACK TO ADAM'S FALL.

That's the point of the Bible giving dates. Problem is, people like Thiele and Camping, can't read those dates. For you are to construct the Calendar of Time exactly as God does, using HIS convention of Years from Adam's Fall.

Unfortunately, the LXX Genesis 5 roster was tampered with, to make it agree with a competing roster of Babylonian kings. (I know you'll argue about this, and I'm done replying to you on it, since YOU WON'T DO YOUR HOMEWORK on the topic.)

Still, the LXX is right in many other dates, and in some cases provides dates either missing or mistaken in the BHS text. So BOTH texts are needed to get all the correct dates (i.e., for Noah's Flood chronology).

Moreover, Bible scholarship long knew of Solomon's correct 970BC-930BC reign, solely from the Bible. It's just in the last 30 years that Christian Bible scholarship has gone into the tank, owing to the apostasy of believers who couldn't give a flip what the Bible really says.

So Thiele represents the 'scholars' who cater to apostate Christendom, which at this point is somewhere over 90%, just has been true since the Ascension.

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 2835

The Bible gives the details on "how long"

Like 480 years from the Exodus to the temple foundation laid

430 years from Abraham to the law

As well as the lengths of genealogies

What the Bible does NOT say is WHEN the STARTING POINT is for these events...

So, get off your high calendar horse and face reality...

If you are trying to create a calendar, it will be proven fiction.

Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 146 Location: Texas

No, Lambsfury, it DOES say the starting point. Bible measures on multiple tracks, and ALL of them tie to Adam's Fall. That's what today's scholars all fail to understand, for they keep making reading mistakes.

(Please understand. I'm a big fan of your posts, except we tangle on a few things, so this isn't to malign you.)

Go look at my http://www.brainout.net/GeneYrs.xls to see how all the dates tie. They tie so well, the Zondervan NASB dates for Israel's kings are exposed to have errors. I'm working on fixing those dates. (Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9 provide the correct dates in the Hebrew meter, to help us tally the years explicit in Kings and Chronicles text. That's what I'll be fixing, come Christmas.)

ALL those dates come from Bible. Zondervan is the lone exception, pending fix. The Pharaonic dates were FITTED IN after getting the BIBLE dates, for the Bible didn't name all the Pharaohs. I got the names from 1985 Encyclopedia Brittanica hardback (you can't get those same dates from EB now, their Egyptology scholarship has gone bad). You can also vet the data using Google books on Egyptology from about the 1930s-1950s, back when scholarship was more careful. Most of those books you can download free.

In short, the right way to do this, is BIBLE FIRST. Then you go look at history, etc. When there's a conflict, ASSUME BIBLE RIGHT, for it will be. The timeline is self-auditing, so you'll catch your reading errors as you work through it. Took me about two years to do that worksheet, and I'm still refining it and re-auditing its results.

Here are some of the errors scholars make, especially the so-called 'Church Fathers':

1. They ASSume lunar years for Bible years. WRONG. Calendar was solar for Noah, was based on his birthday (and scholars well know this), and IT DID NOT CHANGE TO LUNAR when Israel was born, see Exodus 12. Else she'd miss her birthday. Calendar just starts at the 7th month, aka Nisan, for the sacred year, beginning at vernal equinox under Israel. She abandoned that calendar, and that's one of many reasons why Camping's dates are always WRONG. He uses modern Jewish calendar.

2. They think David died when he was 70 years old. WRONG, he was 77. That's why Matthew leaves out some of the generations, for he's tracking the LEGITIMATE KINGS, and plays off the 42 syllable-roster Isaiah uses in Isaiah 52:13-14's SYLLABLES. 42=2x21, very pregnant number in the Noahic timeline for the flood (the three dove-sendings). Two represents Messiah's Dual Nature of God-man.

Luke lists the genealogy for Mary using the Jewish convention of listing the males, but unlike Matthew Luke is playing on the 77th syllable of Isaiah 53 -- which in the text, includes the goyim (us) -- which is David's death year, and wryly makes a play of Christ being the 77th son. (LXX has an error of two Kenans, so delete the extra one from both Genesis 5 and from any errant Lukan copy you might have.)

The 'scholars' ASSume Josephus and the Jewish chronology is right, and that's why they screw up. But the BIBLE says David was 77 when he died, would have been 80 years old when the Temple was built, using the same verse you just quoted, 1Kings 6:1. 1Kings 1:1-2:39 track David's seven years of retirement, then death, and the THIRD YEAR after David died, Shimei was executed. Temple began construction at the BEGINNING of the 4th year (in Ziv, with LXX saying 2 Ziv if I remember correctly), 1Kings 6:1. Scholars overlook that. They also overlook 1Chronicles 24 and following, showing what David DID during his retirement years. So that messes up their chronologies.

3. They ASSume that the sabbatical years missed, were 70. WRONG. There were only 49 missed, and that's why Israel could return TO the Land, in Year 49, just after Daniel prayed. This inexcusable 'scholar' error stems from silly Eusebius' back-slapping 490 years onto the Temple-Down date, because he ASSumed 70 years were missed. 'Scholars' have largely followed his egregious error, ever since.

4. They ASSume that Israel has no future history. This is blatant anti-semitism which only God can correct. I've tried demonstrating how that prejudice has screwed up eschatological claims for years, and you know what -- the claims will just keep on going. Preterism is toast, as is Replacement Theology, both of which want God to change his NAMED BENEFICIARY -- who is CHRIST HIMSELF AS SON OF DAVID -- to Church. Lol, as if we didn't have a 'better covenant'. (Attic word kreittwn, used in Book of Hebrews, to elaborate on Paul's two 'walls' in Ephesians.)

5. THEY REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT BIBLE HEBREW HAS METER. So that very important auditing tool goes unused. That's why I've been documenting it. Granted, some 'scholars' like Douglas Stuart (well-known OT scholar) contend there is meter but don't seem to understand what KIND it is. They're expecting POETIC meter, when instead God uses an ACCOUNTING meter, to keep track of EVERY YEAR since Adam. Prophetic passages use it.

My shortest explanation of that metering style, is here: http://godsrhetoricalstyles.blogspot.com/2011/06/this-entry-is-long-time-in-coming.html

In fact, that's one reason I can't spend much time here anymore (how ironic), I have to go back and vet the meter in Genesis 49, which I couldn't have guessed at until this fiasco with Camping.

So I owe you guys a lot, big time. I've been trying to find the SOURCE of the meter, for years.

6. They ASSume they are only 'objective' if they prefer OUTSIDE DATES to the Bible's. None of the outside dates are reliable enough. All of them have problems: Roman AUC calendar is off by as much as six years. Gregorian tried to fix that but then chopped off 3 years, which is why we have to say Christ was born 4BC; the Egyptian and other calendars depend too much on interpretation, so often prove in conflict. Jewish calendar is off by as much as 346 years, and it's lunar, so its days are never aligned.

There are more errors 'scholars' make, but these six if fixed, would solve most of the dating problems.

REPEAT: Bible is a fully self-contained, ABSOLUTE calendar. It's self-auditing, and even the metering of prophetic passages is a helpful ACCOUNTING tool (not dippy Bible codes, lol). But we don't bother to DO OUR HOMEWORK, and that's the only reason why the Bible seems wrong. WE are wrong. WE don't read it rightly, and WE are too damn busy fighting our silly petty turf wars, to pool our resources and actually LEARN what Bible says.

It's pathetic.

By contrast, thank you for working on the date questions. At least YOU are looking at the material, even if at times you don't yet have the right answers. (LOL if I had a nickel for every accounting mistake I'd made, I'd be richer than Bill Gates.)

Sorry this post was so long. Sorry I can't come back here more often, at least not until my busy season ends. Smile

You're in my prayers!

(PS -- edits were to correct typos.)

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 2835

Your website is garbage....trash that should be fed to the wolves

First, you state that Adam was born in 4106BC

You use that as a foundation, without showing how you arrive at that.

Start at 931BC and show "from the Bible" how you get that date and work to creation, not the other way around.

Second, the LXX, the Samartian Pentateuch and Josephus all agree against the Mastoretic text when it comes to Genesis 11, and have the longer genealogies

When you look at the line from Arphaxad to Terah, in Genesis 11:

                 MT          LXX       SP       Josephus

Arphaxad     35      135          135        135
Sala            30      130          130        130
Eber            34      134          134        134
Peleg           30      130          130        130
Reu             32      132        132        132
Serug          30       130         130       130
Nahor          29       79           79           79
Terah          70       70            70          70

Look at the beautiful harmony of Genesis 11 from Josephus' translation of the genealogies of the 450BC original temple scriptures, the LXX, and the Samaritan Pentatuech. All agree 100% perfectly.....

Also agree are these witnesses....

Theophilus of Antioch (115AD to 183AD):

Arphaxad - 135
Sala  - 130
Eber - 134
Peleg - 130
Reu - 132
Serug - 130
Nahor - 75
Terah - 70

Julius Africanus (160AD-240AD)

Arphaxad - 135
Sala - 130
Eber - 134
Peleg - 130
Reu - 132
Serug - 130
Nahor -79
Terah - 70

Hippolytus wrote in his "Chronicon" in 234AD:

Arphaxad - 135
Sala - 130
Eber - 130

Eusebius in his chronology around 325AD

Arphaxad - 135
Sala - 130
Eber - 134
Peleg - 130
Reu - 132
Serug - 130
Nahor -79
Terah - 70

Now, when we combine the witnesses of Genesis 11, we find harmony with these witnesses:

1. Josephus's translation of the original temple scriptures of 450BC (Nehemiah's copy)
2. The LXX
3. The SP
4. Theophilus of Antioch (115AD to 183AD):
5. Julius Africanus (160AD-240AD)
6. Hippolytus (240AD)
7. Eusebius (325AD)

The most ancient manuscripts before Christ, and early witnesses in the 2nd, 3rd and early 4th century, all agree 100%

The masorete text has no ancient witnesses to its claim of Genesis 11 and its shorter chronologies....

So, these are just a few areas how your website is total fiction..

What a waste of time and effort you did making your little website and it is all fiction!!

Joined: 11 Feb 2011 Posts: 531

brainout- If your timeline stuff is true, I have no hope of understanding it. God's revelation is obviously not for me and since I consider myself a man of average intelligence, I would venture to say most people will never grasp what you're/ God is------trying to communicate. You're material has made itsinthebible's effort look like 6th grade math. What planet are you from?

Joined: 22 May 2011 Posts: 146 Location: Texas

I came back to see if there was news on Mr. Camping's recovery, after the three-doves Shavout of his having a stroke. Apparently not. And instead, I find this:

gary wrote

brainout- If your timeline stuff is true, I have no hope of understanding it. God's revelation is obviously not for me and since I consider myself a man of average intelligence, I would venture to say most people will never grasp what you're/ God is------trying to communicate. You're material has made itsinthebible's effort look like 6th grade math. What planet are you from?

I'm sorry YOU don't understand the material, gary. I'm even more sorry YOU don't take the time to analyze it. But no problem: pastors and scholars are doing that. Not many, but they are in various places around the world. That's why I told you I'm just playing secretary, speeding the research THEY will be doing. They have the authority.

These issues have been very important to Bible scholarship for over 300 years. YOU think the information is bunk, and YOU think it comes from another planet.

Fine. That's your prerogative. Bye.

Joined: 11 Feb 2011 Posts: 531

any scholars or pastors in this forum want to verify that you are taking his work seriously?